Discussion
Ya know, if you *try* to see the horrific sexism in the geek trades, I guarantee that you will see it.
Honest to God, these women are not making this shit up. They're not exaggerating. They're not lying. They're not overly sensitive.
It's fucking real, and it's fucking endemic, and if you're a guy in the geek trades, you need to open your fucking eyes and see it for what it is.
@GeePawHill geek trades?
@GeePawHill 100% facts. Been aghast at this since being an undergrad in the 90s. University of Sydney Computer Science department had people like the tutor Jim Watts who had a Asian girlie calendar up in his office and would tell Asian female students how great they looked. A good chunk tutors regarded tutoring first years as a dating opportunity.
Civ Eng stories way worse.
Then people have the nerve to publicly ponder the pipeline problem; often the same people who ignored the situation.
@GeePawHill I feel this so hard, had an interview with 2 female interviewers, technical interview. I am still mad at myself for being a surprised it was 2 female interviewers, and I fucking hate that.
When my wife pointed out the fact that most TV ads were men telling women how to do housework (in the noughties, IDK if TV is still like that), it was like putting on the shades in the movie They Live! It was everywhere, and I hadn't ever noticed because it had always been that way.
@GeePawHill I had a guy friend tell me he "didn't feel comfortable asking about DEI and stuff during interviews because it's none of his business"
YES, it IS your business unless you don't want this to change. Ask for it. Make it a point. Make it the very first question you ask. Make them feel uncomfortable when they answer it (it's going to be a horrible answer and we know it). It's your business too.
@GeePawHill everyone in this thread might want to read this. https://irenezhang.net/blog/2024/07/24/misogyny.html
If anything they underplay it.
I get told a lot of those stories, and I hope it means the minority person trusts me with the story.
see also geek and nerd hobbies and fansom.
see also geek and nerd hobbies and fansom.
After #MeToo hit the news in 2017, I realized my enthusiasm for #ScienceFiction conventions had almostly completely fallen away, largely because, thinking back over the years, of the creeper bullshit nearly all the men subjected me to. (I can think only a •very• small list of exceptions.) My •friends• ("friends") even. And also, by that point, I'd hit the Age of Invisibility. So, while I wasn't actively being skeeved on, I also couldn't even strike up a conversation.)
@GeePawHill Amen.
One of the reasons I think some folks try to avoid seeing sexism/racism is because then they have to realize it was there all along and they missed it.
Like some weird “sunk cost” thing.
@GeePawHill You don't need to try to see it. You need to stop trying not to see it.
@GeePawHill my mother was a STEM professional and didn’t take shit. I had to have my own career to find out that sexism is out there
@GeePawHill Followup...
Companies keep saying that they want to attract more women to work in tech. My question is that what are they doing to keep us there. Because right now it seems they are just looking for new victims.
@Niina Please never mistake me for an apologist for corporations.
@GeePawHill They see it very well. And enjoy it.
@Niina I know that this will upset you, and I won't follow-up, you can have the last word here.
No they don't.
@GeePawHill @tomasekeli I’d argue that you have to try pretty darned hard *not* to see it. It takes a special kind of malicious obliviousness not to see the sexism, I think.
@pdcawley @tomasekeli Well, it's always good to have a villain.
I'm not asking you to be a saint. I grew up sexist as fuck, and I *still* can be sexist as fuck sometimes.
I'm not telling you this because I'm "cured". I'm a work in progress.
But it's right fucking there. And if you stop protesting not-all-men for five fucking minutes, you will see it.
@GeePawHill speaking as a man, could I just say that, yes, all men have to quit whinging and not-all-men-ing about this - instead of whining about how you are "one of the good guys" and throwing a strop because you think you dont do the things you feel you are being accused of, try acknowledging that this is a problem in all walks of life, and that unless you are actively working to be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Getting angry and declaring "Not sll men..." won't convince the women in your vicinity that they are safe around you - quite the opposite, in fact.
Instead, try living your life in a way that demonstrates this, and do it consistently.
Call out exist behaviour from your colleagues.
Back women when they raise issues.
Make sure YOU are not the one being a sleazebag.
And don't go expecting a cookie for doing this.
This is the bare minimum we should be doing, it's nothing exemplary, it just feels that way to those who find it easier to be part of the problem.
@GeePawHill with you there, for me it was a few hundred podcast of women explaining/ranting. And I say it was is still is kinda.
(and it's very frustrating how "being convinced" and "fixing it for me at least for me for starter" doesn't mesh)
I totally get that you haven't seen it so far.
I was blessed by meeting a bestie who is the center of a large network of women. And me and C are close, we just got close, quickly, as sometimes one does with people.
And I'd sit at her table.
And her female connections would stop by, and they'd side-eye me, old fucking cishet white guy. And she'd say, "He's okay, go ahead."
The shit I heard.
Nowadays I'm more plugged in.
I hear about scumbags, creepers who are geek trade influencers, every single fucking week.
These are names you know.
@GeePawHill I attended a remote workshop on unconscious bias (because I wanted to, it wasn't a mandatory thing or anything like that) but unfortunately was semi-conscious due to fatigue on the day and didn't fully take it in. Would be good to do another one.
@GeePawHill I never know what to do, do I favour women twice as much in applications than men? That's "sexist" too, but then I guess it's kind of trying to make it more equal for them? And then how would women feel knowing that they got hired because I was biased towards them? Would they be creeped out? Also what if it's all good and I helped them, but the environment is not suitable? Had a very strong junior engineer last year, and she was being picked on in meetings more than on one occasion. I'd like to do good, but I genuinely don't know/understand how 😭
@device
If you see someone being picked on, and you are in* a position to be noticed, you call it out.
Even if you don't change the behaviour of others, that person knows that *you* have their back. Which is much better than feeling like you are completely alone.
As for recruitment, where I am we do name-blind recruitment where we don't know names or ages until they accept an interview and then we make sure that interview panels are diverse, that our first questions are consistent, that everyone is aware of the criteria and that we have review meetings to make sure everyone can share opinions on interviewees. Its not perfect but no process ever will.
*edit: heatwave brain can't english
"If you see someone being picked on, and you have a position to be noticed, you call it out. "
This!
A company I've previously worked for (I was managing the software department) had recently hired a new guy in the Economy department. At the annual Christmas dinner he sat right across from me, and we hadn't even got that far into the schnaps when he started making inappropriate jokes about women. Typical old guy stuff.
I just calmly told him, with my voice slightly raised, that he would need to keep that kind of "humor" to activities outside of work.
He was absolutely stunned - obviously this was the first time ever someone had told him off. He tried some lame "but it's just jokes ..." which I quickly shut down with "not appropriate for the workplace" and ... that was it.
Didn't hear a single sexist joke out of him ever again - and all it took was me speaking a few sentences out loud.
It worked because I'm myself a middle-aged white cis male and that's precisely why it's so important to speak up _because_ you're not the one targeted.
@[email protected] Some of it is so much more banal than the creepiness and directly sexual as well. The very first professional tech conference I went to, I chatted to a female speaker and found out that (in context of the conference having paid to fly her across the atlantic to give a technical talk because she was a world class expert on the subject) she had just been told that she needed to choose between taking a pay cut to move to "developer relations" or get sacked because "a really good engineering candidate came on the market, and you're so good with people skills". No points for guessing the gender of the new team member.
Install bonfire.mavnn.eu
Get the full app experience
